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#76267 - 02/24/22 05:18 PM (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Does anybody tried to load (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3?

This material is missing from the Caesar II v12 library even though it is available in ASME B31.3. so I think it should also be available in the Caesar library.

Could someone help me with the values for the material for Caesar's library?.
This would save me a lot of time not having to enter them manually?

thanks in advance

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#76272 - 02/25/22 11:40 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
Richard Ay Offline
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Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 6226
Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
The CAESAR II material database does not have all of the materials from the Code books, only the most frequently used.

If you use A358 304L CL3 frequently in Version 12, you can use the "Material Database Editor" and add this material to the database.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay - Consultant

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#76273 - 02/25/22 05:48 PM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
Denny_Thomas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/20
Posts: 15
Loc: Texas, United States
Hello MikeOP,

Product development ticket is filed on your behalf to include this material in future release of CAESAR II.

_________________________
Denny Thomas
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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#76274 - 02/27/22 04:20 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
mariog Offline
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Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 798
Loc: Romania
Class 3 means Pipe is single welded by filler metal in all passes and completely radiographed, otherwise is still 304L there. Class 1 pipe is double welded and radiographed.
Where is the reference to Class 3 in B31.3? I can find references to Class 1 in IID, in Shell MESC, etc.

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#76275 - 02/27/22 09:58 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
danb Offline
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: ...
For B31.3 for A358 304L you need to use material 196. In addition to use the provisions of table A-1B, i.e quality factor Ej. For class 1,3,4 Ej=1.
Material 199 is special entry for A358 304L for use with B31.1.
_________________________
Dan

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#76277 - 02/28/22 09:10 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: Richard Ay]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: Richard Ay
The CAESAR II material database does not have all of the materials from the Code books, only the most frequently used.

If you use A358 304L CL3 frequently in Version 12, you can use the "Material Database Editor" and add this material to the database.


Thank you for your answer, I agree that it is not possible to incorporate all the materials, it is just that for example in this case, why consider the properties only of 31.1 and not also of 31.3 of the material (199) A358 304L CL3?


Edited by MikeOP (02/28/22 09:15 AM)

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#76278 - 02/28/22 09:14 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: Denny_Thomas]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: Denny_Thomas
Hello MikeOP,

Product development ticket is filed on your behalf to include this material in future release of CAESAR II.

_________________________
Denny Thomas
Hexagon PPM (CAS)


Thank you Denny Thomas, I am sure that in the future it will be helpful, but if you could provide me with the values, this would help me even more, since there are certain considerations that are not clear in the values that are handled in ASME B31.3

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#76279 - 02/28/22 09:39 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: mariog]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: mariog
Class 3 means Pipe is single welded by filler metal in all passes and completely radiographed, otherwise is still 304L there. Class 1 pipe is double welded and radiographed.
Where is the reference to Class 3 in B31.3? I can find references to Class 1 in IID, in Shell MESC, etc.



Yes, there are certain irregularities, there are only the properties for the (199) A358 304L CL3 in the table of chapter IX and the values are different from those of the A358 304L, I suppose that those values could not be taken to evaluate or at least I do not have the sure to use.

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#76280 - 02/28/22 10:11 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
Denny_Thomas Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/20
Posts: 15
Loc: Texas, United States
CAESAR II v12 supports only 2018 edition. Thus, the material and properties match as expected for 2018 edition.

The requested material should be "(196) A358 304L"; the book calls it "A358 304L CL 1&3". Since the book does not differentiate between CL1 and CL3, there was no reason to add the "class" designation in CII.

_________________________
Denny Thomas
Hexagon PPM (CAS)

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#76282 - 02/28/22 01:58 PM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: Denny_Thomas]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: Denny_Thomas
CAESAR II v12 supports only 2018 edition. Thus, the material and properties match as expected for 2018 edition.

The requested material should be "(196) A358 304L"; the book calls it "A358 304L CL 1&3". Since the book does not differentiate between CL1 and CL3, there was no reason to add the "class" designation in CII.

_________________________
Denny Thomas
Hexagon PPM (CAS)



Ok, I suppose it should work for me but it still a bit confusing since for the B31.1 code there are different values for each type of class (196, 197, 198 and 199) and additional is considered for B31.3 Chapter IX, I would think that there could be a chance to have the info for B31.3, but not there is not, anyway thank you, it is good to have a feedback from you to clarify this kind of doubt.

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#76285 - 03/01/22 08:20 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: danb]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: danb
For B31.3 for A358 304L you need to use material 196. In addition to use the provisions of table A-1B, i.e quality factor Ej. For class 1,3,4 Ej=1.
Material 199 is special entry for A358 304L for use with B31.1.


Thank you Danb, that is the recommendation from Coade too, maybe it could be a good idea to include same values from materials with out classes to the CL3 as this example since they are specified on projects using B31.3, of course only if this apply to all materials

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#76286 - 03/01/22 10:04 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
danb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: ...
B31.3 have a different approach than B31.1 for example.
If you access the help for Eff in Caesar input spreadsheet for allowable stresses you will see the following explanation:

B31.3, B31.4, B31.4 Chapter XI, B31.8, B31.8 Chapter VIII, B31.9, NAVY 505, Z662 (J), BS 806 (e), CODETI (z), FDBR (vl), GPTC/Z380

Allowable stress or yield stress tables do not include longitudinal weld joint efficiencies. Eff is ignored for the flexibility calculations. SH is multiplied by Eff when calculating the minimum wall thickness.

Due to this particularity, it it not required to have different material entries for different classes, the allowable will be the same. The only thing is that you will have to consider Eff only for minimum wall calculation.
_________________________
Dan

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#76287 - 03/01/22 10:12 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
danb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: ...
of course if Coade want to be more specific in the material database, even if the allowable is the same, they can do this easy, I think.
It is always preferable that the database is the Coade one even it can be modified / edited by everyone. Editing the database may be quite questionable sometimes, if some values are altered and system pass when it shouldn't (without intention of course smile ).
_________________________
Dan

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#76288 - 03/01/22 10:19 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: danb]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: danb
B31.3 have a different approach than B31.1 for example.
If you access the help for Eff in Caesar input spreadsheet for allowable stresses you will see the following explanation:

B31.3, B31.4, B31.4 Chapter XI, B31.8, B31.8 Chapter VIII, B31.9, NAVY 505, Z662 (J), BS 806 (e), CODETI (z), FDBR (vl), GPTC/Z380

Allowable stress or yield stress tables do not include longitudinal weld joint efficiencies. Eff is ignored for the flexibility calculations. SH is multiplied by Eff when calculating the minimum wall thickness.

Due to this particularity, it it not required to have different material entries for different classes, the allowable will be the same. The only thing is that you will have to consider Eff only for minimum wall calculation.


Useful information, I appreciate your valuable comment, thanks

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#76289 - 03/01/22 10:31 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: danb]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: danb
of course if Coade want to be more specific in the material database, even if the allowable is the same, they can do this easy, I think.
It is always preferable that the database is the Coade one even it can be modified / edited by everyone. Editing the database may be quite questionable sometimes, if some values are altered and system pass when it shouldn't (without intention of course smile ).


I know what you mean, I have had to review models where the warning appears that the values are different from the database when I open them, sometimes it is an indicator that the data has been manipulated or sometimes it is when you run in an updated version of the CII and possibly it is a change for the code, but when you do not have the .CAESAR II file, anyone can modify the permissible ones and you would hardly notice if you do not do a very detailed review, maybe it would be a good idea to lock the materials already loaded in the database and only allow adding new ones with an indicator in the name that allows differentiating those that are loaded manually by the user from those in the database.

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#76290 - 03/01/22 02:46 PM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
mariog Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 798
Loc: Romania
Mike,

In B31.3 IX where the main concern is pressure I can see there is no difference between properties of A312 TP304L and A358 304L Cl1 and 3, providing that applicable notes are considered for procurement. In B31.1, their experience dealing with high temperatures of welded pipes ended with a different approach. It's hard to say there is a science behind, it's just the "Code".

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#76291 - 03/02/22 08:10 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: mariog]
MikeOP Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/17
Posts: 9
Loc: Mexico
Originally Posted By: mariog
Mike,

In B31.3 IX where the main concern is pressure I can see there is no difference between properties of A312 TP304L and A358 304L Cl1 and 3, providing that applicable notes are considered for procurement. In B31.1, their experience dealing with high temperatures of welded pipes ended with a different approach. It's hard to say there is a science behind, it's just the "Code".


You are right Mario, but I don't know what considerations B31.3 ch IX take, allowables from B31.3 Ch IX are higher than B31.3

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#76292 - 03/02/22 11:55 AM Re: (199) A358 304L CL3 material for B31.3 [Re: MikeOP]
mariog Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 798
Loc: Romania
The base Code rules operate with an approximation as design equation that becomes very conservative when pressure approaches the allowable stress. Chapter IX uses a different design equation for pressure load, higher allowable stress and many additional requirements.

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