Let us consider an imaginary situation where a
young engineer in piping group is designing a piping carrying natural gas at a temperature 450 C in ASTM A53 Gr B with a piping class rated for much lower temperature.

What could be & should be his response, where process group is responsible for design temperature & piping class & piping for anchor loading to civil rack and his organisation is really obsessive about Safety of customer ?

This situation has become necessary because Bhopal & Space Shuttle problems have resulted
from intense cost cutting leading to destruction of many lives & made great organisations infamous & today's capitation fee fuelled education infrastructure in developing nations do not teach enough professional courage in young engineers. Here, our aging gurus from Heuston & Germany must teach us how to behave in such a situation ?

regards,

sam

Hmmm,

Well this is a question of how one has to deal with people who are not stupid, but maybe ignorant.

The first thing one tries to do is to educate the people involved.. for instance carbon steel at this temperature has some very specific warnings in the design stress table in both B31.1 and B31.3 so I would let the code do my talking for me.

Following a code that is applicable for the design work is always a wise choice your argument or teaching of the people involved when using a code allows you to pass on the cumulated knowledge of all the people invoved with the specific code.

So keep a cool head and point out how ill advised this is from a code standpoint. And make sure that everything that transpires is in writing notifying all parties that you are doing so that when something bad happens you want to have a clear path of responsibility to the parties who made the bad choice.

(This usually does the trick!)

Thank You, Sir, for the wisdom in your reply.

But,irony is that, while we know about 800 F gaphitizition temperature and the warnings for A53 Gr B mentioned in ASME B 31.1 & B 31.3, we justify its usage at 440 C saying that the allowable values are still listed at this temperature in ASME B 31.3.

Another reason of our justification is may be the statistics of very less number of casulties related to natural gas because of its' limited range of flamability (in between 5-15% only, when mixed with air) and quite high auto ignition temperature & very high safety standard & integrity of compressed natural gas delivery pipings we generally come across. Even bonfire test & 30 calibre bullet test on CNG cylinders are carried on in vehicles.

regards,

sam

Sam,

Assuming B31.3 is the code that is applicable... B31.3 does require you to use listed components to assemble your system (unless you want to comply with the requirements for unlisted components which is a tough way to go).

Anyhow the listed components published pressure and temperature ratings must be adhered to for pressure design at temperature.

Do your components in carbon steel have a rating at this temperature in Carbon Steel??? if not theres your limiting factor...

Sam,

It is always a mistake to opine that the words in the Code provide "wiggle room" to do something unsafe. We always refer to the forward that tells the reader that the Code does not attempt to be a "cook book" for design and it is the responsibility of the engineer to develop a design that complies with good engineering practice. I don’t think we are worried about that methane while it is in the pipe - but when that hot methane get out of the pipe through the crack in the embrittled carbon steel, it will find that there is a lot of oxygen available and somehow arrive at the right mixture quantities.

Back in the '60's I ran into one Ol' Boy who, when he felt "management" was asking him to do something that he (as "the engineer") felt was not good practice would do the following: He would type (that was a while ago) out a complete explanation as to why he objected to the practice at issue and mail (post) a sealed copy to himself, to "management" and to his immediate supervisor. He would note the distribution at the top of the page so that everybody knew where copies of his "memo for the record" were going. When he received his copy he would put it into his (home) file without breaking the seal. He felt that if he were ever questioned about the design, he had "proof" that "he told them it was a bad idea" and the post mark revealed the date he told them.

Regards, John.

hmmm sounds like you are very, very, familiar with this type of problem....

Sam is in a messy situation which is not fair to place him in. But nobody ever said life would be fair.

Sam be strong and courageous, cowards die a miserable death.... (one prerequisite the SAT and ACT tests do not measure)

Sam,

I presume that you are from India.

I would appreciate if you can kindly send me your e-mail address. The reason is entirely personal and has nothing to do with your question in this forum.

My e-mail id is:abhattac@bechtel.com

Dears,

I value the concern of our forum members, especially of Mr. John C. Luf.

Yes, I am from the East, where children are brought up to protect the customer & all inclusive society to serve. Also, today the organisations are very safety conscious themselves & protect their honest people.

Here is real story what one here had done in similar situation few years ago:

A 235 MWe nuclear PHWR saturated steam turbine shaft had cracked on two consecutive occations due to lack of proper steam drain facility which had been detected by the investigator, but not communicated to the client due to fear by the A/E firm. The person, consciousely knowing the risk, made a call to the chief of the client's engineering group & disclosed everything.As a result, all the 235 MWe plants got derated to 220 MWe due to revamping of steam drain pipings of all the existing & under construction plants & the same A/E firm got fresh works for two years for this revamping work.

regards,

sam

My own opinion is that we few humans pursuing this work have been given certain "gifts" (or curses depending upon your point of view). Anyhow we the few are obligated to take care of our fellow humans welfare.

Trying to take care of our fellow humans is never easy and sometimes it is very, very difficult. But thats the way it is and the only way out is to go into another line of work... (Barbering seems to be a good venue).

So SAM where you are in the world matters not from my perspective I assume you are a Homo Sapien just looking for some good advice....

(Of course having testified in legal proceedings regarding this work I will admit is not neccesarily a fun task!)

I am very sorry, Sir, in qualifying my roots while answering Anindya's query.

Indeed I was looking from some good advice to perform duty, without hurting oneself through complex legal & security barriers.


regards,

sam

PS: If any of our forum member has 30 minute to spare in a day, please learn Pranayam from Swami Ramdev's www.divyayoga.com or turn on channel 2005 in DIRECTV for aastha channel to get instruction from TV. This has made many people healthy & strong in India without any medicine. This I am writing in the backdrop of any sanction against Lance Amstrong, which may result in loss of interest in US regarding cycling & exercise. Let us experience the strength ourselves instead of worshipping or idolising anyone.

Apology not required but thanks much the same... Tai Chi and golf.... but I'm still too damned fat!