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#29755 - 09/03/09 09:40 AM Harmonic Shaking Force
Farhad Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Dear friends,

Attached, there's a shaking force plot at node 100 "generated by BOS Fluids software" which is a suction line of a recip. compressor. Peak-to-Peak force is 150-(-300)=450N.

What is the magnitude of harmonic force? (450N or 225N)

Regards,
Farhad


Attachments
815-100.jpg

816-100-L.jpg


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Farhad Salehi
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#29793 - 09/04/09 06:32 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Perseus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/09
Posts: 77
Loc: Dorset, UK
If i remember this correctly:

The range is 450N so the amplitude is half this. A simple equation to model this is F(t) = -75 + [225*cos(ωt)]

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#29794 - 09/04/09 06:33 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Perseus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/09
Posts: 77
Loc: Dorset, UK
If i remember this correctly:

The range is 450N so the amplitude is half this. A simple equation to model this is F(t) = -75 + [225*cos(ωt)]

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#29807 - 09/04/09 11:13 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
My question is, what is the input value of harmonic force in CAESAR II dynamic analysis?
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Farhad Salehi
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#29830 - 09/08/09 04:19 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
anindya stress Offline
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Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 493
Loc: London, UK
Knowledge of Fourier analysis is required to properly comprehend the authors question.

REGARDS
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anindya

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#29833 - 09/08/09 05:33 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: anindya stress]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Dear Anindya,

Discrete Fourier analysis is already performed by BOS Fluids on the sawtooth function of suction or discharge. In mechanical response analysis, the shaking forces from acoustical analysis are used to perform a standard harmonic mechanical analysis.

Since BOS Fluids produces three dimensional plots of the unbalanced force distribution, it is typically easy for the user to inspect those plots and decide which of the force components should be used in the mechanical harmonic analysis.

My question is, what is the input value of harmonic force in CAESAR II dynamic analysis?


Edited by Farhad (09/08/09 05:33 AM)
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Farhad Salehi
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#29836 - 09/08/09 08:59 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
anindya stress Offline
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Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 493
Loc: London, UK
The frequency content of a Force vs Time data cannot be ascertained w/o transferring the problem to frequency domain. This is what I have tried to say, something I believe you do not disagree.The data provided is a Force vs Time .

A simlified analysis can obviously be done using Harmonic idealization.

Regards
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anindya

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#29844 - 09/08/09 03:56 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: anindya stress]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Anindya,

I know the exact frequency content is difficult to assess from observation alone. In order to get a better view of the frequency content the force time history is Discrete Fourier Analyzed. Compressor is running at 960 RPM (16 Hz). As shown below in Harmonic Components plot, 2nd and 4th harmonics must be considered in CAESAR II harmonic analysis that means 32Hz and 64hz, as worst cases. But individual harmonic runs must be performed for other harmonics as well, to be sure all possibilities have been taken into account.
So, shaking force that I've shown above is exactly applied to node 100 is 450N peak-to-peak.

If you are to perform CAESAR II harmonic analysis, what do you input in harmonic force form? is it 225N or 450N ?




Attachments
822-harmonics@170.JPG




Edited by Farhad (09/08/09 04:02 PM)
_________________________
Regards,
Farhad Salehi
--------------
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#29848 - 09/08/09 05:14 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
anindya stress Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 493
Loc: London, UK
Farhad,

The way I understand is you are trying to teach how to perform harmonic analysis using caesar ii using input from BOS fluid.

If that is the case, why don't you add some more questions like the concept of frequency content , how cycle counting has to be done and what type of fatigue analysis is required and above all when harmonic analysis has to be done and when it is not. I think that will put the newcomers to read more on the subject.

Regarding the question of whether to use 225 or 450 is based on simply drawing a sine curve and understanding the meaning of amplitude and range for that curve.

Regards


Edited by anindya stress (09/08/09 05:15 PM)
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anindya

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#29859 - 09/09/09 03:46 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: anindya stress]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Dear Anindya,

As I understand from your previous posts, you use to preach people. Please respect others' right and thoughts. If you don't like my posts, just ignore them. It's not fair to judge people this way.

Many Thanks
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Regards,
Farhad Salehi
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#29864 - 09/09/09 06:16 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Perseus Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/09
Posts: 77
Loc: Dorset, UK
Farhad,

I am not that familiar with the dynamic aspect of CII, however I think it is clear enough to deduce the correct force if you understand what the inputs are and this is what Anindya is getting at.

Looking at the user manual you will see basic examples. One of the inputs is phase angle (which I believe only becomes relevant with more than 1 force involved - in phase/out of phase) which tells you that the force will therefore have a positive & negative aspect.

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#29870 - 09/09/09 04:10 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
anindya stress Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 493
Loc: London, UK
Dear Farhad,

I sincerely appreciate your post and if my comments have hurt you in any way, I tender an unconditional apology for the same.My intent was to initiate a discussion with you to add more points to your question , which , looking back at my posts I think , I could have done and said in a better way.

Once again my most sincere apologies.

Regards
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anindya

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#29895 - 09/10/09 04:18 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: anindya stress]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Many thanks Anindya,

My intend was also to explain more detail to you and others about compressor piping analysis.
Anyway, would you please answer my question? 225N or 450N harmonic load should be entered in CAESAR II harmonic analysis? I think as far as I have time history plot of force, net peak-to-peak force should be applied to node 100. In CAESAR II user's guid, it's indicated that Harmonic Force = 0.5 (Pressure variation) (Area) at each elbow. That's why I doubt it. If you apply 1/2 of force at each elbow, it seems to me that net force at midway.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
_________________________
Regards,
Farhad Salehi
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#29923 - 09/10/09 04:56 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
anindya stress Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 493
Loc: London, UK
Dear Farhad,

If I have to do a Harmonic analysis,my opinion is it should be 225N as that is the mean of the range ie the amplitude.The curve for y= sinx has a range 2 and amplitude 1.A Force=Fsinwt should be worked with amplitiude and not range.

The govening eqn. for Harmonic analysis is:

MX( DOUBLE DOT) +KX +CX(DOT)=Fo sinwt where Fo is the amplitude and not range.450 is the range and 225 is the amplitude.

As I have mentioned before that I am sceptical about doing Harmonic analysis when the frequency content is broadband. However, based on Fourier analysis theory if the exciting frequencies are low, a harmonic analysis can be justified.

The way I would approach a problem if I get the time history of loading is like this ( typically I get it this from our hydraulics group):

1) Use the force vs time data at each ( significant) change in direction to generate the DLF spectrum and use a response spectrum analysis ( or find the max. pressure differential b/w two elbow -elbow pairs and do a static analysis with DLF 2)

2) Do a frequency content check and avoid harmful frequencies from the structural freqencies of the piping system.


It is best to leave the analysis and supporting of compressor piping systems ( upto significant distance)to the vendor as the complexities are too high.It has wlays to be considered that resonance will happen ( there is an engineering dynamics corporation paper on this, the subject matter of the paper is which philosophy of API618 should one adopt).Coupled acoustic-structural analysis which basically is an Eulearian-Lagrangian approach is beyond capacity of most stress engineers ( at least me) and I would prefer not to venture into areas which are outside my area of expertise.

Regards


Edited by anindya stress (09/10/09 05:03 PM)
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#29951 - 09/11/09 12:05 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Dave Diehl Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 2382
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
Have you tried both 225 and 450 in CAESAR II?
Verifying an analysis to your own satisfaction is healthier than accepting the advice found on a public forum.
If 450 is your peak-to-peak range of load, then enter 225 in CAESAR II. Amplitude (zero-to-peak) is the program input.
Are you applying this load on every straight run throughout the system with the appropriate phase angle? If so, please let us know how things work out. I usually use harmonics to evaluate response to a single load or displacement.
_________________________
Dave Diehl

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#29952 - 09/11/09 12:06 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Dave Diehl Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 2382
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
Have you tried both 225 and 450 in CAESAR II?
Verifying an analysis to your own satisfaction is healthier than accepting the advice found on a public forum.
If 450 is your peak-to-peak range of load, then enter 225 in CAESAR II. Amplitude (zero-to-peak) is the program input.
Are you applying this load on every straight run throughout the system with the appropriate phase angle? If so, please let us know how things work out. I usually use harmonics to evaluate response to a single load or displacement.
_________________________
Dave Diehl

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#29980 - 09/13/09 11:25 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Dave Diehl]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Hello Dave,

Thanks for your guidance. As users are instructed that each load should be applied simultaneously and the harmonic variation applied without phase shifting between loads, by PAULIN Research Group, I'll try to discuss this with Tony Paulin as well. I'll post the final CAESAR II input job to this forum for more discussion and let you know.

Thanks,
Farhad
_________________________
Regards,
Farhad Salehi
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What U give U get back !!!

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#30016 - 09/15/09 05:10 PM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Dave Diehl]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Dave,

Here is advice from Tony Paulin as follow:

Quote:
The reason for the message in the BF manual is that inspecting phased resultscan be difficult. There is no question that all loads applied with the correct direction and phase angle is best, except that applying all phased, directional transient loads in a modestly complex piping system due to a repeated acoustic wave passing whether using a fluid simulator to compute the loads (BOS Fluids),or estimating the loads by hand has resulted in a considerable number of errors and unproductive runs. Our recommendation is to evaluate individual, unbalanced dynamic loads in the longest runs individually and without phase angles first.
As more competence and understanding is developed both with the CAESAR harmonic output and with the load development tool then more complex runs can be developed. BOS Fluids produces the unbalanced load for point pairs within the piping system and not for single point loads at each change in direction and so the need for phasing the loads is not as great. Our hope was that this would make developing and applying the transient loadings simpler. The recommendation is essentially to start with simple dynamic models, and to add complexity as needed.


Anyway, I'll create a harmonic job with phase angle and post it.

Thanks,
Farhad
_________________________
Regards,
Farhad Salehi
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What U give U get back !!!

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#30087 - 09/18/09 08:49 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Farhad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 133
Loc: UAE
Some more useful discussions,

Quote:

Tony,

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've generated 2D unbalanced force output plot
at midway node (node 100) of the elbow-elbow pair run in BF. peak-to-peak load is 450N, so applied load is 225N at node 100. Should I apply this force at elbow? In CAESAR II user's guide it's said that user should apply loads (Harmonic Force = 0.5 (Pressure variation) (Area)) at elbows with phase angle (phase = [(frequency)(length) / (speed of sound)]360º). As I understood, as far as I apply shaking force at midway between 2 elbows, it's not that important to enter phase angles. CAESAR II approach for harmonic loads' phase angles is using single points at elbows, like time history of pressure wave traveling from source to downstream elbows.

Thanks,
Farhad

________________________________

Farhad,

The questions you ask are general, and so please accept that the responses must be general too. For the significant loads and a first pass at evaluating the system your approach sounds correct to me. This presumes the mode of interest for the load of interest involves an axial movement of the pipe between the elbow pairs where there is no relative movement of the elbows in the axial direction. For typical runs of pipe around compressors, this may be an adequate assumption. For long runs of pipe, this won't be the case. Inspecting mode shapes and frequencies associated with the period of the excitation will give you some idea if these assumptions are valid. For your first runs, I wouldn't worry about the phase angles, keeping in mind that the interactions of loads in time may be important. As you get started, proper inclusion of support or intersection stiffnesses, and all weights is probably the most important items to focus on. Once you've seen that you've got multiple runs of pipe that will participate together to load the system, you can begin to look at phase relationships. If you want to apply point loads rather than unbalanced loads, these can be extracted from the BOS Fluids results for
each point and applied at elbow pairs, (or change in direction pairs). The same can be done with the next elbow pair and the phase relationship provided to CAESAR. The phase angle may not be known, or may not be available from a third party, and in these cases running a zero phase for all unbalanced loads can be done with a selection of load sense that is conservative.
Care should be exercised when inserting supports to reduce displacements and/or loads. New supports will change the frequency of response and may introduce involvement of other modes depending on the geometry.
There is an assumption inherant in the fact that you are applying an unbalanced load at the middle of a piping run. It is that the relative axial deflection of the run of interest occurs at a higher frequency (lower period) than the time scale associated with the loading of interest and that the rigid body axial behavior of that run is sufficient to develop bending moments, torsion, forces, etc, at other places in the system that are susceptible to the unbalanced load studied. This assumption is invalid, for example for impact driven piles, since in the pile driving problem the relative axial deflection of the pile is an
important parameter in the dynamic solution.

Tony

_________________________
Regards,
Farhad Salehi
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What U give U get back !!!

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#32088 - 12/19/09 06:05 AM Re: Harmonic Shaking Force [Re: Farhad]
Dylan Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indonesia
Dear All,
I don't have BOSS Fluid Software, so can we use F = MwV^2 to calculate the Harmonic Force? where M is the Mass in Lbm, w is angle frequency, and V is diplacement.

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