This is in reference to John C Luf's interesting article 'Sustained Stresses' in the COADE Mechanical Engineering News dated January 2001.
Under heading Sustained Stress Mulipliers (Indices) John refers to an equation for SIF:

i=a/S.(N^b) where a = 245000 PSI and b=0.2
Factors a, and b are material specific, values shown are for carbon steel.

As I am doing some personal research in to SIF vs SCF what I would like to find out from John (or any body else) is where did he obtain the values of a and b from and furthermore where did the above SIF equation originate from.

I look forward to your comments.

Regards
Aaron.

See Ref 3 listed in my article....

Mr. Markl and his colleauges work have withstood the tests of time and advances in engineering... an outstanding piece of work on their parts.

John,
Thanks for the info. I tried to access this document but it was like looking for a needle in a haystack. I got all sorts of papers which refer to Markl's work but not the paper you refer to. Can you give me some leads please. Incidentally does it cost to download this paper?

Regards
Aaron

It is no longer in publication, however if you can pick up a used copy of piping engineering by Tube Turns it and all of Markls papers are contained in it....

I just did an ebay and amazon search with no luck but keep your eyes peeled....

I bought a copy of Piping Engineering (6th Edition) directly from Tube Turns back in 2001. I suggest you call or write them directly in Louisville, Kentucky. I sent them the check for $35 and they sent me the book. Published in 1986, it holds several papers by their Chief Research Engineer - A. R. C. Markl.

But these are reprinted from the Transactions of the ASME, the first one is from Volume 69 Number 8.

Thanks Gentlemen,

Unfortunately I have already ordered an old copy (1975 edition)from Abebooks at more than twice the price you quoted.
I will give ASME transactions another go.

Regards

Ah well Aaron I applaud you for putting your money out for some wisdom... nowadays these forums are usually filled with people asking other people to do their homework you meanwhile have decided to become a worthy student... you will if you continue to expand your knowledge become a master while the others meanwhile will continue along their path of the easy way out.... and remain ignorant.

Is it not the case that because these codes are so old in there original genisis that the information required to become a master is no longer available.

I am uncomfortable with the fact that the major
pieces of established work which most stress engineer use for todays pipe stress are out of date.

Only recently, i managed by near criminal means to aquire a copy of some parts of the original kellogs calculations used by most engineers in
calculating pipe attachments.
I checked some of our standard calc. sheets against this original material and was not supprised to find errors.

I honestly believe that the structure/complexity/ ambiguaty and age of the asme piping codes
Encourages Deceitfull people to declare competance,and restricts the ability of new guys with high morals to prove those idiots wrong.
All in the name of "engineering judgement."

With due respect, if Mr luf tried to learn this 'art' from scratch in todays engineering culture i feel he would become fustrated very quickly.

Regards

Dear SuperPiper,

Your concerns are well founded in fact. But I ask you what do you suggest the ASME or any of its comitteees do about this?

I publish articles through Coade in an attempt to help out the situation. Books such as Tube Turns Piping Engineering are still available with some difficulty. Courses and lectures are available.

The bottom line is when I was ~20 years old this arcane portion of the engineering sciences was a tough one to get into. It is worse in some ways now but in other ways it is better. These forums for instance are a wonderful mechnanism to exchange ideas, 30 years ago they were not available nor even thought of.

So its a tough field to grasp it was tough years ago... "A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Confuscious"

Well, T.J.N, I think we senior citizens "feel your pain". As my esteemed colleague, the Rev. Dr. Luf, says "we been there". There were FAR FEWER published works to learn from "in the day" (on the other hand these few works were much less expensive - my first copy of the Tube Turns book cost me $10 new). I began working with pipe stress analysis software in 1963 (punched cards and NO INTERACTIVE GRAPHICS, no user's manual) and I wanted to learn it all just by "taking a pill". By my estimate, it took me 15 years to "achieve competence" in pipe stress analysis". We didn't have many compeers to ask and there were no discussion forums. And, that is why I like to do seminars now - to pass it along to the people who want to learn (hey, give me a soap box and five people to talk to and I'll bring my "slides".....). By the way, when John Luf was 20 years old, carrying two books was tough because they were chiseled onto stone tablets and were too heavy.

I think there have been some very useful books published long after "Kellogg" but some did not stay in print very long. That is the nature of the publishing bid-ness. Ours is such a narrow field of interest that publishers have a hard time recovering the cost of publishing new books. ASME and CASTI have published excellent books on pipe stress analysis (and they have been kept up-to-date). Sam Kannapan wrote 2 or 3 excellent piping design and analysis books in the last 20 years but they are now out of print (and I never hear of anybody asking about them in the forums). There isn't really THAT much that is new (I still use 30 year old material in seminars but now it is in Power Point format). So, nobody wants to publish another rehash of the same olde stuff. Best we can do is tell your where we learned it and let you go search for it (by the way, ASME published thick blue books that gathered together all the papers of our stress analysis "founding fathers" (including the A.R.C. Markl papers) and I heard that they have recently reprinted these so go look there).

I will have to take exception to your position that the age and structure of the piping codes makes them difficult to understand (now, the ASME B&PV Code, THAT is tough!). Originally we were told "do not write a textbook, the Codes are to be regulatory not educational". Lately though we have included appendices in our Codes that ARE eductional to those who are willing to read them (I think we are gonna run out of alphabet for naming our appendices).

Be alert to some other learning opportunitiies. Our friend Dr. Chuck Becht sometimes writes very informative articles for his web site:

http://www.bechtengineering.com/processPower/articles/ASME-B31.3TechnicalChanges2004.htm

If you have any opportunity to attend a seminar by Glynn Woods or Chuck Becht or Ron Haupt go do it no matter what the cost 'cause it will pay you back many time over.

OK, enough already

Regards, John

Stone indeed... actually papyrus!!!!

The one thing that has dissapointed me most about ASME is the difficulty the create in accessing these older papers. I have been able to get some of the Markl papers myself as I was able to, by luck, run across a pre-Ed Klein publication of ASME collected papers. I'll have to see if ASME really is reprinting some of these papers. With it's history, they'll probably be charging and arm and a leg for them.

Quite frankly, I wish ASME were more like ASCE. I had an occasion to go looking for and ASCE paper from the early 80's. One of the structrual engineers is an ASCE member. He was able to go to their website, find the paper as a PDF file, and download it w/o some extra exorbitant fee. His annual membership was good enough to get him this information.

I think ASME would much better serve its membership (and I'd actually consider joining, myself) if they'd hire a couple of interns to scan and index these old papers and make them available for download from the website.

As it stands now, I've seen ASME as little more than a cash machine and I could never see a reason for a working engineer to be a member. Businesses certainly benefit from membership to keep up with the codes, but there's just no value for the typical engineer.

Gentlemen, thanks for such a wealth of information, however not being very good at finding needles in haystacks, I am still struggling to latch on to Transaction of the ASME, not to mention any papers on Mark'l. If anyone can lead me to this site I would be grateful.
Can one look at these ASME publications first before deciding whether to buy or not?
Incidentally Edward Kline sounds awefully familiar, are you related to Jim Kline (piping lead) of FW from Houston many moons ago?

Regards A

Hi Aaron,
I have the Markl's paper that J. Luff is referencing in his January '01 article. Send me your email address and I will scan and send it to you.
Regards
Ranka

I have one other thought.

See if you can find a Fifth edition of the Piping Handbook by R.C. King and Sabin Crocker on the Internet used book sites. It must be a Fifth Edition as (I think) this was the last edition that included the article by John Brock, titled "Expansion and Flexibility". I am currently without a copy as I have had two of them "wander away" in the last 10 years.

Anyway, there is a wealth of understanding to be had if you read the Brock article and he even includes as an appendix the original final report of the ASA B31 "Flexibility Committee" circa 1955.

The latest (7th) edition of the Piping Handbook is a wonderful tool and it represents a "labor of love" from Mohinder L. Nayyar. I have copies of the last few of these. I would gladly buy a 7th edition to swap "even-up" with anybody who has a fifth edition in good condition. Anyway,this is not the Markl Papers but it is good stuff.

Regards, John

Hi Ed,

You are too harsh on us. We really try to serve the ME community but even ASME has a budget. You can look at the P&L Statement it is public.

".....scan and index these old papers and make them available for download from the website." They would not have to scan them they "own" them and if someone could make a "business case" for putting them out as a paperback collection it would not be difficult. Take a look at the the price of any collection (Special Publication) of papers from any recent PVP division conference - talk about sticker shock!! But if they cannot cover their costs it won't happen - that is called good fiscal management - something the membership demands to keep the membership dues (which are already high) within "reason".

Consider the fact that with the exception of the paid employees in NEW YORK (again) everything (e.g., Code Committees) that happens in ASME is volunteerism. It comes out of somebody's pocket most often ours. Somebody (maybe John Luf) once said "Ask not what the ASME can do for you; ask what you can do...."

Aaron,
Hang in there maybe there is something that can be done to get these papers into a more available package. I suspect it would not be legal to scan them in (a *.pdf file of all 5 papers would be HUGE) and put them on an Internet site. It would be a legal liability to anyone who hosted the web site but I know that the Bonny Forge Bulletin 502, "Flange Design" is out there as a (HUGE) scanned-in *.pdf file.

Fridays are for venting - sigh

Regards, John.

Hi Ranka,
I am also looking the Markl's paper. Please send me a copy of the the same. My email ID is challenge2life@yahoo.co.in
Thanks in advance.
Regards,

Hi Ranka,
Thanks for taking the trouble to send me Markl's papers, hope I can return the favour some day. My email address is HRARAR@aol.com

Regards A

Hi Ranka , I am looking for the Markl papers ... could you send the same to me at ajay.singh.virdi@fluor.com

Thanks in advance
Ajay

Hi Ajay ,
I am looking for the same one (Markl papers ...) could you forward the same to me at domeshkumar.shanmugam@power.alstom.com

Thanks in advance
S.Domeshkumar

Hi Ranka , I am also looking for the Markl papers ... could you please send it to me at ehi_xavier@yahoo.com.

Thanks.
Best regards,

pipepro

Could someone simply post the papers (possibly on COADE's site) and provide a link?

Hi Richard,

Sadly, there is a copyright problem. The papers being discussed became "the property" of ASME when they were accepted for publication by the PVP Division. COADE will not break the law and that is appropriate behavior. We students of the science would have to convince ASME (blitz them with letters) that if they would republish a collection of selected papers (perhaps as a paperback?) there would be enough demand for them to recover their costs of publishing plus (New York) overhead.

Regards, John.

Hello John. I suspected as much. Thought I would ask. Funny...posting them on a website for general knowledge and education is illegal, but apparently, emailing them is not.

Ranka, could you email a copy to me? richard.havard@mustangeng.com

Once again, for ASME, it about the $$$ first.

Well send your comments to them. I assure you that Mr. Breen and I get nada.... no wait a minute we get to spend our plentiful spare time helping to maintain and revise the code...

Hey Ed,

Have you ever gone to a meeting of your local ASME Section?

http://www.asmesouthtexas.org/

"Walk a mile in my shoes, b'fore you criticise and abuse....."

John

Ranka,
Could you send me "Markl papers." Thanks
bvs19@juno.com

Dave Diehl
Moderator
Member # 8

Tube Turns - Markl's employer still offers the set of these papers in their Piping Engineering book.

I called them to order mine at (502)774-6011.

Their mailing address is:
Tube Turns Technologies, Inc.
2900 W. Broadway
P.O.Box 32160
Louisville, KY 40232

$35


Again, thanks to Dave for answering this frequently asked question.

Yes, to learn thorougly and to a good competence level, it takes around this much time.

Now a days, companies tend to squeeze out the "Flexibility Report for so n so job" from engineers like us with total of 10 years experience. I wish our managers could read this sentence from a veteran like you Mr. Breen.

Ranka,
Could you send me "Markl papers." Thanks

piper11@walla.com

Regards
Siv

Ranka,

Could you send me also "Markl papers." Thank you very much.

samsulpm@yahoo.com

Ranka,

Could you send me "Markl papers."

Thank you very much.

predator1973@libero.it

Mino

Friends,

What about the Copy Right?

Ranka,

Could you send me also "Markl papers." Thank you very much.

smarmech@gmail.com

Rams

Ranka,
Could you please send me "Markl papers."

Regards
Habib

habibur.sk@simoncarves.com

Dear Ranka,

Could you send me also "Markl papers".
Thanks

Regards,
Rois
rois_s@yahoo.com

Check this post, it will tell you where you can purchase these papers:

http://www.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...h=true#Post6665