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#19621 - 07/30/08 08:54 AM SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE
Francesco Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Italy
Can you tell me which SIF value I should take if I have branch pipe (reinforced or unreinforced) to header pipe connection is lateral (45 deg with header) according ANSI B31.3?

Is it correct to use the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection?

Until now in ANSI B31.3 I never found any note about SIF value for pipe to pipe connection with angle different from 90 deg and I have used the same SIF value of 90 deg branch connection.

Thanks

Best regards

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#19623 - 07/30/08 09:05 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Francesco]
CraigB Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 378
Loc: Denver, CO
Please search this topic on the board.

Q: Can you tell me which SIF value I should take if I have branch pipe (reinforced or unreinforced) to header pipe connection is lateral (45 deg with header) according ANSI B31.3?

A: No, there is no established standard calculation for this value.

Q: Is it correct to use the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection?

A: No.

Q: Until now in ANSI B31.3 I never found any note about SIF value for pipe to pipe connection with angle different from 90 deg and I have used the same SIF value of 90 deg branch connection.

A: Congratulations. you have learned an important lesson in life - don't keep making the same mistake over and over. It's very important to be self-critical as an engineer - who else knows your work better than you do? Even the most dedicated checker cannot spend more than a small fraction of the time checking one of your analyses that you do in preparing it, so a checker will never be able to catch all your errors.
_________________________
CraigB

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#19740 - 08/05/08 03:30 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: CraigB]
Italtecnica Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Italy
Hello,

I'm agree with CraigB that using the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection is incorrect.
But I think that is incorrect using the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection and the header.
I note that Caesar in simulation uses the same values.If we use formulas by B31.3, we note that the SIF value depends on pipe thickness.So, if we have 16" heather pipe and 8" branch pipe connection with different thickness, for my opinion the using of the same SIF value is incorrect.
B31.3 formulas are very conservative and could create several problem in overstress condition. Probably, using different SIF valus, we should have less problems in this kind of simulations.
Also in 45degree branch connection the analyst has the same problem, and there's another problem: the area of 45degree branch connection on header pipe is bigger then the area of 90degree branch connection on heather pipe. So, for my opinion,45 degree SIF value will be higher then 90degree SIF value.
Are you agree with my opinion?
But in what way we can find the real value of SIF 45degree branch connection? Could be a solution using a proportion beetwen areas of 45degree and 90degree branch connection?
I explain this concept: geometrically 45 degree branch connection area is 1.41 times bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.So the radius of 45 degree branch connection area is bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.The flexibility characteristic (h) changes.So it could be possible using the different flexibility characteristic value to obtain the real value of 45degree branch connection

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#19746 - 08/05/08 06:54 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Italtecnica]
Francesco Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Italy
I have found a possible solution in McGraw-Hill - Piping Handbook (7e) B.147.

Here you can find equations to calculate SIF for angle different from 90 deg.

SIF value for 45 deg branch connection is about 65-70% higher than SIF of 90 deg branch connection.

But I'm not still able to understand because a so very detailed code as B31.3 doesn't calculate the SIF for 45 deg branch connection.

I think that there will be a reason; I can't believe no one matters this problem


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#19774 - 08/06/08 01:22 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Francesco]
mav Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 57
Loc: Russian Federation

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#19775 - 08/06/08 01:52 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Italtecnica]
Italtecnica Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Italtecnica
Hello,

I'm agree with CraigB that using the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection is incorrect.
But I think that is incorrect using the same SIF value used for 90 deg branch connection and the header.
I note that Caesar in simulation uses the same values.If we use formulas by B31.3, we note that the SIF value depends on pipe thickness.So, if we have 16" heather pipe and 8" branch pipe connection with different thickness, for my opinion the using of the same SIF value is incorrect.
B31.3 formulas are very conservative and could create several problem in overstress condition. Probably, using different SIF valus, we should have less problems in this kind of simulations.
Also in 45degree branch connection the analyst has the same problem, and there's another problem: the area of 45degree branch connection on header pipe is bigger then the area of 90degree branch connection on heather pipe. So, for my opinion,45 degree SIF value will be higher then 90degree SIF value.
Are you agree with my opinion?
But in what way we can find the real value of SIF 45degree branch connection? Could be a solution using a proportion beetwen areas of 45degree and 90degree branch connection?
I explain this concept: geometrically 45 degree branch connection area is 1.41 times bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.So the radius of 45 degree branch connection area is bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.The flexibility characteristic (h) changes.So it could be possible using the different flexibility characteristic value to obtain the real value of 45degree branch connection


I would know what you think about the concept shown above.
Could it be correct or not from ypur point of view?

Regards

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#19815 - 08/07/08 02:21 PM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Italtecnica]
mav Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 57
Loc: Russian Federation
Originally Posted By: Italtecnica
Could be a solution using a proportion beetwen areas of 45degree and 90degree branch connection?
I explain this concept: geometrically 45 degree branch connection area is 1.41 times bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.So the radius of 45 degree branch connection area is bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.

No. If area (moment of inertia) is bigger than SIF must be smaller. FEM modeling confirm It.

When we analysed results of branch FEM shell modeling we discovered that SIF for 45 degree branch is smaller than for 90 degree branch.
But the stress concentration factor (peak stress) in real life is much greater in 45 degree connection than in 90 degree branch. It confirmed by experements. Look WRC 360 (by E.C. Rodabaugh) for example.
i=K*C
K - stress concentration factor. Much greater for 45 degree
C - peak stress from FEM modelling. Lesser for 45 degree
Inplane SIF increase very insignificantly for 45 degree (because moment of inertia is increasing too and C decresing), but outplane SIF increase significantly (moment of inertia become the same, but K is increasing).

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#19832 - 08/08/08 03:28 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: mav]
Italtecnica Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: mav
Originally Posted By: Italtecnica
Could be a solution using a proportion beetwen areas of 45degree and 90degree branch connection?
I explain this concept: geometrically 45 degree branch connection area is 1.41 times bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.So the radius of 45 degree branch connection area is bigger then 90 degree branch connection area.

No. If area (moment of inertia) is bigger than SIF must be smaller. FEM modeling confirm It.

When we analysed results of branch FEM shell modeling we discovered that SIF for 45 degree branch is smaller than for 90 degree branch.
But the stress concentration factor (peak stress) in real life is much greater in 45 degree connection than in 90 degree branch. It confirmed by experements. Look WRC 360 (by E.C. Rodabaugh) for example.
i=K*C
K - stress concentration factor. Much greater for 45 degree
C - peak stress from FEM modelling. Lesser for 45 degree
Inplane SIF increase very insignificantly for 45 degree (because moment of inertia is increasing too and C decresing), but outplane SIF increase significantly (moment of inertia become the same, but K is increasing).


Sincerily I don't agree your explanation. Then, in another thread you wrote
this:

"I've investigated this quesion well. FEA software (I've tested Paulin's Nozzle pro and Ansys) produce incorrect results. For 45 degree lateral It give less SIF than for 90 degree connection io(a)~io*0.7. Nature tests doesn't comfirm this."

http://www.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=18352&page=5#Post18352

link is the same you posted above






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#19858 - 08/10/08 06:28 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Italtecnica]
mav Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 57
Loc: Russian Federation
FEM modeling (Nozzle pro) give us lower values of SIF for 45 degree (less than for 90 degree), but experiments shows it should be higher than for 90 degree in real life.

Look for example http://www.paulin.com/WEB_when_a_sif_is_off.aspx
FEM produce SIF for 60 degree less than for 90 degree branch. But It's unconfirmed by experiments (look WRC 360).

I think that's because nozzle pro uses shell FEM elements. But for accurate solution It must use volume FEM elements with very fine mesh in stress concentration zone.

To avoid this inaccuracy nozzle pro provides special coefficient that user should enter. The result FEM stress multiplied by this coefficient to calculate REAL peak stress. This coefficient could be obtained only from experiment. For 45 degree branch it would be much higher than for 90 degree branch. So I think nozzle pro is useless for 45 degree branch SIF calculating because we don't have these coefficients (no experemental data).

So I decided for myself that the better way is to use CODETI recommendations. It's simple and qualitative correct. We don't have anything better and accurately at this moment...
But I'm interested in opinion of other specialists

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#21331 - 10/08/08 08:11 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: mav]
Richard Ay Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 6226
Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
From Tony Paulin of of Paulin Research Group:

Quote:

The experiments sited in WRC 360 for SIFs all involve proprietary fittings and not pipe-to-pipe intersections. Rodabaugh in WRC 360 compares the work of Wordsworth, Smedley and Khan for pipe-to-pipe intersections, and these comparisons show the reduction in inplane and outplane SIF for laterals. (The SIF reduction is believed to occur because the lateral geometry provides a larger footprint on the header.) In fact, PRG NozzlePRO results compare more favorably to the Worsworth data than the Hsiao and Khan results given in the WRC 360: 8.7% to 17%.

Shell elements are the element of choice for most SIF work done for EPRI and by PRG for the ASME. Where D/T ratios become small, the shell solutions are supported by brick models, but the end result is typically a linearized membrane or bending stress which is then used in a fatigue evaluation.

As in the PRG article sited below in the note, the moment loading of most concern for laterals is often torsion since there is such little data for it, and since the torsional SIF can become larger than the inplane or outplane SIFs when then intersection angle becomes steep.

The "special coefficient" mentioned below is suggested when pressure cycling is the load mechanism of concern. High stresses due to pressure generally occur at locations away from the high stress locations due to external loads. This makes combining pressure and external load stresses using the method of stress intensification factors difficult.
Fortunately, many of the situations where pressure cycles are the major fatigue causing mechanism can be analyzed separately. We recommend an increased SCF for pressure cycling loadings. This is based on model comparisons with cyclic pressure failures - principally those of Deacock. (Ref 5 in WRC 360).

The complaint that there are no experimental FSRFs (or SCFs) for laterals goes somewhat against the variety of test data that supports full penetration welds of different types and the fact that the high stresses for out-plane loads do not occur in the acute crotch weld of concern.

The most significant cost associated with fatigue testing for PRG is the preparation of the specimen. If the lateral issue is important to this particular client, we would be glad to run Markl style fatigue tests at no cost on several laterals providing the specimens were prepared and shipped to our facility. We are also interested in any new SIF or fatigue data of piping components that may have escaped our recent literature search.

Regards,
Tony Paulin

_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay - Consultant

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#21372 - 10/09/08 04:43 AM Re: SIF BRANCH 45 DEGREE [Re: Richard Ay]
Francesco Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Italy
Hi Richard,

after reading your post I understand if I use the same inplane or outplane SIF (according to ANSI B31.3) value used for 90 deg branch connection for a branch pipe (reinforced or unreinforced) to header pipe lateral connection (45 deg with header) I'm not wrong and my results are conservative because the inplane and outplane SIF decrease when I have a lateral pipe-to-pipe (reinforced or unreinforced) connection.

I have to correct the only torsional SIF if I have pressure cycling.

Do I understand correctly your post?

I wait for your reply

Thanks

Regards

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