Hi,

I am analyzing a pump. The imposed loads and moments on nozzle is higher than those specified in table 4 but less than 2 times. I have met criteria F.1.2.2 and F.1.2.3 but surprisingly, Caesar II shows Overall Pump Status ** FAILED **.Would you please advise me regarding this matter. I think as I have satisfied F.1.2.2&F.1.2.3, overall pump status is passed.

Hi Reza
Please check in input data " Factor for table 4 allowable" should be 2.

Hi Reza,

Even if clause F.1.1 and clause F.1.2.1 is satisfied but the F.1.2.2 and F1.2.3 are not satisfied,it gives failure results. I want to know,what if the vendors gives you allowable forces and moments for the pumps? Are we going to analize the pumps again trough API 610 in Caesar? Anyone who could give us advice?


_____________________
Regards,

Dear Reza 59,

Beside checking individual load on each suction & discharge (you mentioned pass), we need also to check the efect load on each connection translated to the center of the pump (you mentioned failed). Please read carefully API- 610 Appendix F- Section F.1.2.3.

Dear friends,

Thank for your replies.Please find my answer as bellow:

Dear Shr,Factor for table 4 is not 2.It is one.

Dear machoguy,
If you meet allowable force and moment given by vendor based on table 4,with reference to the following API 610 clause(API_610_10th-2004) you do not need to check other criteria.
F.1.1 Acceptable piping configurations should not cause excessive misalignment between the pump and driver. Piping configurations that produce component nozzle loads lying within the ranges specified in Table 4
limit casing distortion to one-half the pump vendor’s design criterion (see 5.3.3) and ensure pump shaft displacement of less than 250 μm (0,010 in).

If imposed load and moment are higher than allowable in table 4 bur less than 2 times you have to satisfy F.1.2.

Piping configurations that produce loads greater than those allowed in F.1.2 shall be approved by the purchaser and the vendor.


Dear Samsul P. Manik,

I think you misunderstood my question.As I mentioned above I have satisfied the imposed load on each connection translated to the center of the pump(I have satisfied F.1.2.2&F.1.2.3).But I have over load on nozzle.
According to API 610 if your nozzle load and moment are higher than table 4 but less than 2 times if you fulfill criterias in F.1.2(API_610_10th-2004) overall pump status is passed provided you inform The purchaser that the use of Annex F methods can result in up to 50 % greater misalignment than would occur using the loads of Table 4.

Considering I have met all Criterias mentioned in Annex F, I believe that the overall status of pump should be passed.But CaesarII shows it failed!!

Reza
Caesar II is showing fail because you input factor for table 2 as one.
If you do that caesar will only consider Table 2 value even for combined analysis. Just make a simple check feed any one data 1 newton more than that is mention in table 2 it will show fail.

Dear Reza 59,

I’m so sorry I did not read your post carefully . Our forum mates are correct. So your case actually:
(1) Checking individual loads on each suction & discharge (fail).
(2) Checking the effect loads on each connection translated to the center of the pump (pass).

Please note that overall pump status is "passed" if only point (1) and (2) passed. To make it more clear, could you please paste the output to your next reply. We can use factor 2 for the ratio moments & forces.

Dear Friends,

please find API report.
INPUT (CAESAR II Global Coordinates):

Horizontal Pump
Pump axis direction cosines (X,Z): ( 1.000, 0.000)

Node # Orientation Nominal Diameter
Suction Nozzle 515 Side 12
Discharge Nozzle 2510 Side 10

Table 2 Allowable ( ratio ) = 1.00

Suction Nozzle Discharge Nozzle

X Distance = 0.0 mm 0.0 mm
Y Distance = -325.0 mm -375.0 mm
Z Distance = 600.0 mm -550.0 mm

X Force = -12273.0 N -4215.0 N
Y Force = 4814.0 N -4194.0 N
Z Force = -6254.0 N -987.0 N

X Moment = -6898.0 N.m -2150.0 N.m
Y Moment = -5984.0 N.m 6110.0 N.m
Z Moment = 965.0 N.m -15.0 N.m



OUTPUT (API 610 9th Edition Local Coordinates):

Suction Table 2 Force & Moment Status
Values Ratios
x distance = 0.0 mm
y distance = -600.0 mm
z distance = -325.0 mm

x force = -12273.0 N 6672 1.84 Failed
y force = 6254.0 N 8006 0.78 Passed
z force = 4814.0 N 5337 0.90 Passed

x moment = -6898.0 N.m 6101 1.13 Failed
y moment = -965.0 N.m 2983 0.32 Passed
z moment = -5984.0 N.m 4610 1.30 Failed

Discharge Table 2 Force & Moment Status
Values Ratios
x distance = 0.0 mm
y distance = 550.0 mm
z distance = -375.0 mm

x force = -4215.0 N 5337 0.79 Passed
y force = 987.0 N 6672 0.15 Passed
z force = -4194.0 N 4448 0.94 Passed

x moment = -2150.0 N.m 5017 0.43 Passed
y moment = 15.0 N.m 2440 0.01 Passed
z moment = 6110.0 N.m 3796 1.61 Failed

Check of Condition F.1.2.2 Requirement Status

(FRSa/1.5FRSt2) + (MRSa/1.5MRSt2) = 1.581 < or = 2.00 Passed
(FRDa/1.5FRDt2) + (MRDa/1.5MRDt2) = 1.048 < or = 2.00 Passed

Check of Condition F.1.2.3 Requirement Status

1.5 ( FRSt2 + FRDt2 ) = 32027. > 18019. (FRCa) Passed
2.0 ( MYSt2 + MYDt2 ) = 10847. > 4619. (MYCa) Passed
1.5 ( MRSt2 + MRDt2 ) = 22574. > 13628. (MRCa) Passed

Overall Pump Status ** FAILED **
According to API 610(please refer to my previous post),as I have passed F.1.2.2&F.1.2.3 and imposed loads and moment are less than 2 times, the overall state should be passed .I think there is something wrong with my software.

Dear Reza 59,

Simply go to "input data" TAB, see the very lowest item "factor for Table 2 Allowable". Fill "2" for this item.

The factor "2" in "factor for Table 2 Allowable" has correspondent to value "bolted font" output ratio below:
x force = -12273.0 N 6672 1.84 Failed
y force = 6254.0 N 8006 0.78 Passed
z force = 4814.0 N 5337 0.90 Passed

x moment = -6898.0 N.m 6101 1.13 Failed
y moment = -965.0 N.m 2983 0.32 Passed
z moment = -5984.0 N.m 4610 1.30 Failed

The factor "2" in "factor for Table 2 Allowable" does not have correspondent to value "bolted font" output below.
(FRSa/1.5FRSt2) + (MRSa/1.5MRSt2) = 1.581 < or = 2.00 Passed
(FRDa/1.5FRDt2) + (MRDa/1.5MRDt2) = 1.048 < or = 2.00 Passed

If you still want to use "1" for "factor for Table 2 Allowable" then fail, you need to reduce the load on each nozzle by changing the routing of your line pipe for example.

Unless you are referring to an out of date edition of API 610, it's Table 4 for piping loads, 10th edition, 2004.

Most pump manufacturers are quite happy to accept simply 2x Table 4 loads and make no reference to Annex F, which is not mandatory. This relates back to older editions of API 610 that had no Annex F (the pump /baseplate design is probably the same as it was 10 - 20 years back). Then, 2x table 2 loads (identical to current table 4) were permitted with a 'heavy baseplate', which was never properly defined.

Perhaps it's worth writing this (2x Table 4) simplification into your next project Mechanical Spec. ?

Dear MoverZ,

Thank you very much for this correction. Old reference .

Dear Samsul P. Manik,

I apparently know that when I simply increase factor for Table 4 Allowable to 2 I have no fail.This is the simplest way to solve the problem.

My question is according to API 610 when you have overload on nozzle that are less than 2 times of allowable specified in table4 your overall pump status is passed provided you fulfill criteria F.1.2.2&F.1.2.3.This is my understanding from API610.

Does it correct or not?

If it is correct the overall status of above result must be passed because although I have over load on nozzles but they are less than two times and criteria F.1.2.2&F.1.2.3. have been fulfilled.

I can understand from your kind reply that CaesarII can not understand this and we have to increase allowable factor manually to 2

Dear Reza 59,


[b]F.1 Horizontal Pumps[/b]

F.1.2 Piping configurations that produce loads outside the ranges specified in Table 2.1A (2.1B) are also acceptable without consultation with the pump vendor if the conditions specified in F.1.2.1 through F.1.2.3 are satisfied. Satisfying these conditions will ensure that any pump casing distortion will be within the vendors design criteria (see 2.2.8) and that the displacement of the pump shaft will be less than 380 pm (0.015 in. ). Note: This is a criterion for piping design only.

F.1.2.1 The individual component forces and moments acting on each pump nozzle flange shall not exceed the range specified in Table 2.1A (2.1bBy) a factor of more than2 .

F.1.2.2 The resultant applied force (FRSA, FRDA) and the resultant applied moment (MRSA, MRD,) acting on each pump nozzle flange shall satisfy the appropriate interaction equation (Equations F- 1 and F-2).
(FRSA 11.5FRS~z)+ (MRSA I 1.5MRSn) I 2( F-1)
(FRDA I ISFRDT~+) (MRDA I ISMRDT~I) 2 (F-2)

F.1.2.3 The applied component forces and moments acting on each pump nozzle flange must be translated to the center of the pump. The magnitude of the resultant applied force (FRCA), the resultant applied moment (MRCA), and the applied moment shall be limited by Equations F-3, F-4, and F-5. (The sign convention shown in Figures 2.2-2.6 and the right hand rule shoublde used in evaluating these equations.

But please note that I respond w/ old API 610 as dear MoverZ already explained using API 610 2004. I will see API 610 2004 then.

Dear Samsul Manik,

My Japanese boss is working right with pumps, he is only comparing the allowable loads given by the manufacturer, but the problem is he cannot pass the allowables given. I compare the allowables to the API 610 table 2, and there is slightly difference.

Right now is doing many changes like re routing and we are very behind of the schedule. I think he didn't read Annex F on API 610. He dont know also how to use API 610 in Caesar II. I give him sample results of Caesar but he neglects my results. How to convince him? He rarely speaks and understand English.

Dear Machoguy,

If the allowable loads given by the manufacturer are the same with the value listed in table 2 (table 4 for new API 610), we can use the above method (please note also dear MoverZ's posting). But if they are different, allowable loads from manufacturer should be THE NUMERO UNO . Please note also API-610 is for CENTRIFUGAL pump.

Dear Samsul Manik,

Thank you for the advice but I have still confuse.Yes we are evaluating API610 for centrifugal pumps. Consider the the situations.

Let's say we have a failure on force and moments in our nozzle which is compared to the allowable's given by the vendor but my results on CaesarII API 610 is pass, the overall pump status is okey. But the problem is my boss dont know this idea and he dont consider this. He still continuing rerouting.

If we encouter these situations, I believe my pump status is okey considering the results given by CaesarII API610.

Any suggestion?

Dear Machoguy,

If the allowable loads given by the manufacturer are the same or a little bit different due to rounding value and close with the value listed in table 4, it will convince us us that we can use the above method. If they are different significantly, it means that the pump manufacturer wants us to design piping which impose loads on pump nozzles below their own allowable (in this case manufacturer's allowable cancels allowable loads in table 4 of API 610).

Dear Samsul Manik,


Samsul Manik, thank you for your answer, from now on I can decide and continue my work without any confusions. Mabuhay Ka!

Best Regards,
Machoguy

As far as I can tell Annex F is basically mandatory for the manufacturer (can be used without consultation with the manufacturer).

I would however suggest that sorting this out with the OWNER prior to using it helps prevent headaches.... many owners are not happy with Annex F... and it takes some work to get them to agree. So my read is that I can use Annex F to qualify a pump ONLY WITH OWNER APPROVAL...


SLH

Hi all

I have questions regarding nozzle displacement. From where can we get? For existing pump how to calculate? Shall we consider pump nozzle as anchor with zero boundary conditions?

Thanks for your support.

Dear Wahab,

There are 2 options 1)anchor and 2)displacement boundary.
For option 2, [DX,DY,DZ]= [X,Y,Z]*alpha*delta Temp ; X,Y,Z = distance in X, Y, and Z direction of nozzle face to fix point of pumps (example: horizontal pump with end suction and top discharge nozzle, the fix point is the intersection of shaft and pedestal centerline). RX, RY, and RZ= 0 (pump nozzles are assumed has no flexibility in rotation).