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#21730 - 10/22/08 03:39 AM dynamic shock arrestors
SUPERPIPER Offline
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 405
Loc: Europe
i read recently that Caesar are looking at putting in a damping option into the restrains so that one can look at the influence of these hydraulic shock absorbers.

is this happeneing? i think i remember noticing in the help file, units are available for this function in future.(dmp)?


Edited by SUPERPIPER (10/22/08 03:54 AM)
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#21738 - 10/22/08 08:48 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: SUPERPIPER]
Richard Ay Offline
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Registered: 12/13/99
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Where did you read that?
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#21742 - 10/22/08 10:26 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: SUPERPIPER]
SUPERPIPER Offline
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 405
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From the help file
Quote:
Gap
(UNITS: mm.)

This is a multiple use field defined as follows:

TYPE = X Y Z GUI LIM RX RY RZ

GAP (UNITS: mm.)

GAP - Distance along the restraint line of action the restrained node may travel before resistance to movement begins. The gap value must be positive. For rotational restraints the gap is given in degrees. If the translational restraint is not preceded by a sign, then the restraint is double acting and the gap will be taken to exist for both positive and the negative displacements along the line of action (i.e. if a 0.25 in. gap is specified at a +Y restraint, then the restrained node may move freely 0.25 in. in the minus Y direction before restraint occurs. The gap specification does not affect the amount of free displacement that can occur along the positive Y direction in this example).

When defining windows of allowed movement it is not uncommon to place two restraints having the same line of action, but with different signs at the same node. This configuration is perfectly legal. The user is cautioned to remember to form the window with signs on restraints rather than with signs on gaps. In CAESAR II a gap is a measure of length and is always positive.

Examples:

TYPE GUI GAP 1/4 ... One quarter mm. gap on either side of the "guided" restraint.

TYPE +Y GAP 3.0 ... Three mm. gap BELOW the support that must be closed before the +Y support begins acting.

TYPE RX GAP 5.0 ... Five degree gap about the X axis about which the pipe may rotate freely before rotational restraint occurs.

TYPE = XROD YROD ZROD

Len (UNITS: mm.)

Len - Swinging length of the rod or hanger. Distance along the restraint line of action from the restrained node to the pivot point. The restraint swings about the pivot point. If a CNODE is defined then the restraint swings about the CNODE. "Len" is a required entry.

TYPE = X2 Y2 Z2 RX2 RY2 RZ2


K2 (UNITS: N./mm. <or> N.m./deg )

K2 - Post yield stiffness of a bilinear restraint. When the load on the restraint exceeds Fy then the stiffness on the restraint changes from K1 to K2. The value of K2 may be negative, modeling shallow trench or groove-type pipeline supports. K2 VALUES OF ZERO WILL BE TREATED AS RIGID. For very small stiffnesses enter a value of 1.0.

TYPE = XSPR YSPR ZSPR


"x" (UNITS: mm.)

"x" - Travel along the spring axis before "bottom-out" occurs. In the case of a typical YSPR, this is the movement in the negative "Y" direction before the spring bottoms out.

TYPE = XSNB YSNB ZSNB

dmp - Future use intended for snubber damping value.


From the Forum:
Quote:
I don't believe you can correctly model a damper in CAESAR II at the present time. A damper and a snubber are totally different animals. Dampers are like sticks, attached to the pipe, that sit in a tub of goo -- so the pipe squishes around while it vibrates.

Our understanding is:

1. The damper should have no effect on the static model.
2. The damper should have no impact on the mode shapes or frequencies.
3. The damper's impact on modal analysis cannot be determined.
4. As far as we can figure, dampers can only be simulated by multiplying the nodal velocity times the damping value (which, by the way is frequency dependent, so the damper has a different value for every mode) to get a time-varying force which then should be added to the force profile.

So how would somebody model this? They would have to estimate its impact as a time dependent force, and include that force profile in the Time History (not an easy matter).

This is a subject we are studying for possible inclusion in the software.
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#21745 - 10/22/08 11:38 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: SUPERPIPER]
Richard Ay Offline
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Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 6226
Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Ok thanks - I'll remove that from the "help".

If and when we get around to damping, it will likely be defined in the dynamic input.
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#21763 - 10/23/08 06:23 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: Richard Ay]
SUPERPIPER Offline
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 405
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Richard Ay
Ok thanks - I'll remove that from the "help".

If and when we get around to damping, it will likely be defined in the dynamic input.


agreed, static input is non time dependant, so i'd imagine it would not have any affect.

however, its the dynamic bit i'm intrested in.,
I'm intrested in how you get to the reasoning that dampers do not influence modes or natural frequencies.

could you give me a link to the material you base this on?

Regards
Tim
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#21767 - 10/23/08 07:01 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: SUPERPIPER]
Richard Ay Offline
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Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 6226
Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
I remember (from my first physics class) that a mode (natural frequency) is the "free, undamped" vibration of the system.

[M]{a} + [K]{x} = 0

There is no " [C]{v} " component in this equation.
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#21791 - 10/24/08 02:03 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: Richard Ay]
SUPERPIPER Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 405
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Richard Ay
I remember (from my first physics class) that a mode (natural frequency) is the "free, undamped" vibration of the system.

[M]{a} + [K]{x} = 0

There is no " [C]{v} " component in this equation.


blushouch.......

back to primary school for me then sick
I suppose its how one looks at the damper.

i think your approach may be simplistic, the system is clearly not free at the node of the damper. how does the damper react? could you treat it as a rigid support and ignore the damping component?

To ignore it, would mean it has no effect on vibration, which is clearly incorrect as that is precisely what they are designed to reduce.



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#21803 - 10/24/08 09:07 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: SUPERPIPER]
Dave Diehl Offline
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Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 2382
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
I would include their (rigid) stiffness in the dynamic model. I believe they would only permit very low frequencies, too low for most piping systems.

The new B31E includes restraints in the seimic evaluation even if they are gapped (within limits).
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#22341 - 11/12/08 10:21 AM Re: dynamic shock arrestors [Re: Dave Diehl]
John Breen Offline
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Registered: 03/09/00
Posts: 482
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA (& Texas)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,

Is this "snubber" / "damper" the same thing that Lisega calls a "shock absorber"?

I am looking at one of these creatures at the moment and it seems to me that the only thing that needs to be modeled for the static cases is the weight of the (usually stout) dynamic pipe clamp. If there is some "gap" involved, the pipe will support the clamp and the hanger attachment will support the "shock absorber". Or so it seems to me.

Regards, John
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